Women and Chocolate

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Permalink Reply by Samantha Madell on June 25, 2009 at 1:29am

Probably for the same reason/s that most (inter)nationally renowned chocolate makers, chefs, writers, etc etc etc, are men.

I think the issues addressed by Virginia Woolf in "A Room of One's Own" in 1929 are still very much with us today.

Of course, there are exceptional women in most fields who have proven that basic ability isn't the problem (in chocolate manufacturing, Cecilia Tessieri of Amedei is an obvious example).

What do you think, Christine?

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Permalink Reply by Ilana on June 25, 2009 at 9:45am

hmmm. Men are still more able to emerse themselves whole heartedly and totally into their careers. Less juggling. Not right but still true. That is my 2 cents.

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Permalink Reply by Andrea on June 25, 2009 at 3:38pm

I agree with both Sam and llana. Men aren't usually the ones managing their families lives like the majority of women do. A man has an easier time of being accepted as 'professional' over a woman, even if she has better qualifications. Any field that is seen as a hands on type business is usually expected to be a mans field. Just the other day I had a jerk mechanic tell me "What do you know, you're a woman." This was over the transmission in my truck. I have a bust so there for I must not know anything? Pffft!! By the way, I was right and he was wrong.

To me it's just crazy that the chocolate industry is not dominated by women. I mean come on folks, women have an intimate relationship with chocolate. More of the woman that try my chocolate taste a lot more of the flavors than the men, the guys usually say something like, "yeah that's really good" where as the women will say, "there is a slight fruity flavor here or the after taste is like this or that". Women, I think, are not as black and white as most men, we see things in many different perspectives. I think this is the main problem for woman and what helps out the men advancing in the field. That of course is not to say ALL women or ALL men fit this description.

Wow, sorry for ranting! ;)

Andrea

OK, just have to add....it also seems that the prettier the woman, the harder it is to be taken seriously as a professional. But for men the more handsome they are the better they are treated.

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Permalink Reply by Brad Churchill on June 25, 2009 at 4:59pm

Over the years I've had the opportunity to work with men and women in many different professional capacities. IN GENERAL, what I've found is that women are FAR more creative than men. Did I say FAR? So "far" it's not funny. However that creativity comes at a cost. That cost being emotionally involved with what they are doing.

I can name numerous examples - cake decorating, graphic arts, advertising, packaging - just to name a few. These are professions where the end result is to ellicit an emotional response from the client. As a general rule, men just "don't go there" emotionally.

The reason I think more women haven't risen to the top of the culinary industry isn't because men are better, but rather because of atrition. In a commercial kitchen, the pressure can be incredibly intense, and in bursts, and in many ways politically ignorant - the exact type of pressure a lot of women don't traditionally handle well.

I'm sure there's also discrimination and sexism (there always will be to some degree), but I can't personally attest to seeing any.

Those who get past the male egos, machoism, harsh and direct ways that men communicate, and do so without cracking will, in my opinion do better than any of their male counterparts.

Having said all of that, I've just let my shop manager read this, and as a professionally trained chef, and having had experience in commercial kitchens she's seen it all, and agrees. Those on this forum may disagree with my 2 cents here, but at least I have one professional female's opinion before pressing the "reply" key.

Brad

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Permalink Reply by Andrea on June 25, 2009 at 10:07pm

"the exact type of pressure a lot of women don't traditionally handle well."

I take offense to this statement. You try juggling being on the phone to make a doctor appointment for a sick two year old while he's throwing up all over you, during which you're cooking dinner for a large family (on a time crunch), the other kid's whining that they don't like what your cooking...all while keeping a smile on your face so everyone else in the house doesn't have to deal with all hell breaking loose. And don't forget you have to keep it all cleaned up and don't burn the dinner because the last thing you want after all of that is for anyone else to be grumpy. Sort of how you would handle a commercial kitchen I'd say. Honestly I think women handle stress great, we just don't expect a pat on the back for it. Maybe that is what our problem is.

Andrea

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Permalink Reply by Brad Churchill on June 26, 2009 at 2:27am

Andrea,

I meant no offence at all. In fact if you re-read my post above, you will see that I'm in general paying a compliment to women.

I am also a single father, and very well understand household/children stress.

Personally, I don't know how stay at home parents (men OR women) handle that kind of stress. I can't do it full time. It's a constant, steady pressure, 24 hours a day. I can't fire my daughter if she's whiny or makes me mad. The house won't clean itself. The bills won't pay themselves. Just going to the mailbox knowing there's more crap coming down the pipe makes my skin crawl. I hate that kind of "all the time" stress, and respect those who can.

Also owning a commercial kitchen, I can definitively say that the stress that's present there is VERY different, and can be very intense - so intense that a lot of people (both men and women) can't hack it. I've had people quit after only 4 hours on the job.

I'm not posting in here to stereotype anyone. I'm simply sharing. If people are offended with my experiences, well... there's nothing I can do about that. Good or bad, it's what I've experienced in my career/life.

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Permalink Reply by Samantha Madell on June 25, 2009 at 8:45pm

Brad wrote: "I'm sure there's also discrimination and sexism (there always will be to some degree), but I can't personally attest to seeing any."

I was wondering how long it would take for a man to say that he's never witnessed sexism.

I think it's very easy to be oblivious to sexism when you're not on the receiving end of it.

But a hypothetical scenario that Brad himself invented over on the Secrets thread, about a powerful CEO ("Bob") and Bob's assistant ("Jennifer") was overtly sexist. Ilana commented on it at the time, and I can tell you for a fact that Ilana was not the only woman on the forum who found Brad's gender stereotyping to be both unnecessary and unhelpful.

Now, I suppose Brad's going to say that I'm picking on him.

Brad: if you feel picked on at the moment, and you don't like it, then you've gained some insight into the way many women feel every single day of their working lives.

I'd like to add my voice to the growing female chorus: I have most definitely been on the receiving end of sexism many times.

One of the most overt examples that springs to mind was when I was on a business trip in the South Pacific, and I was criticized for riding inside the cab of a truck. I was told that the women's place was in the open tray at the back of the truck, and that my behaviour was offensive.

Who told me this? A white, male, Christian missionary, who, by the way, had young daughters. Will his daughters grow up believing that they can succeed at anything, or will they grow up feeling (and behaving) like second-class citizens?

It's easy to tell girls and women to ignore sexism, but it's very hard to ignore it when people imply, every day, that you're second rate because of your gender.

I'm in the interesting position of generally going by a gender-neutral name (Sam). Many times people have written to me, assuming that I'm a "Mr" because I'm knowledgeable about numerous technical issues. The message is that if you know stuff, then you must be male.

I know a guy whose father will not employ women of child-bearing age, because pregnant women and women with young children cost small businesses money. This kind of discrimination is illegal, but it still exists. Of course, you can't be open about this kind of discrimination ... it just so happens that a young woman is never "the right man for the job".

And the subject of beauty is an interesting one: I know an exceptionally attractive, and exceptionally talented, professional woman who works in a male-dominated industry. She receives unwanted sexual attention every day.

Many men laugh about this kind of thing and say "I wish" ... but it is no laughing matter to the woman who's just trying to get on and do her job.

I am absolutely certain that most women could add numerous anecdotes of everyday sexism that they've encountered.

Sexism is *everywhere*, but it can be very hard to see if you're a man, and you're not looking.

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Permalink Reply by Clay Gordon on June 25, 2009 at 9:20pm

Let's generalize this last statement. There are -isms in every culture and they can be very hard to see if you are not a member of class being victim-ism-ized and you're not looking.

Sex, age, race, size, weight, hair color (especially redheads [me!] and blondes), religion (or lack thereof), ethnicity, country of origin, sporting team affiliation, whether or not your teeth are white enough, Mac/Windows, do you open your eggs little end up or big end up? - what prejudices we may see as "natural" in our culture others will abhor, and vice-versa.

My personal pet peeve in the workplace? I intensely dislike working with people who refuse to think for themselves - irrespective of gender or any other factor. I also hate office politics. It's one of the reasons I am self-employed.

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Permalink Reply by Brad Churchill on June 26, 2009 at 2:29am

Clay;

Here Here! I hate office politics too. (and gossip). It's also a big reason why I'm in business for myself too.

Brad.

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Permalink Reply by Tom on June 29, 2009 at 6:01am

All other factors asside, what about statistics? Has anyone counted say the number of proffessional chocolatiers for example and split them by gender. If there are a lot less women than there are men in the field, not that I am saying there are....I haven't done the count, then there will be a lot less women at the top than men.

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Permalink Reply by Ilana on June 29, 2009 at 11:10am

Agreed-too many hang ups. We are over judgemental in general. Imagine being the wrong sex, race, size, hair color with reputations, wrong country and yellow teeth!! "Luckily" I only fulfill some.

I bet someone out there has all this- and yet against all odds is successful.

Small mindedness is hard to tolerate.

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